Tricky TT spot.

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ColinB Veteran Posts: 1336		Tricky TT spot. Aug 18, 2008 11:33 AM. Indlæg 1
		In a $5 pr multi, 10 players. I have TT in BB. Blinds 100 / 50 I have 2550 stack. UTG+1 raises to 250. All fold to me. I call for an extra 150. (Pot 550) Flop is J88 (rainbow) I check, villain bets 350, I fold. I really felt weak after folding. Preflop, anything I do felt wrong. I kept watch of the table ok, and had picked out some loose players. Villain wasn't one of them, so I had fair reason to think he had some kind of hand in early position. Preflop, TT is too strong to fold, going all in is over the top and I dont like calling OOP either. His bet on the flop means nothing, he does that with any hand except JJ and 8x (8s is not a likely holding of course). A good player doesnt do that with AA either, but players still bet out with that. Given that, what line could I have done taken. My chances of hitting a T dont justify a call, so I have to be able to win a pot without hitting the set sometimes.

Noah Sinking Senior member Posts: 1605		RE: Tricky TT spot. Aug 18, 2008 11:41 AM. Indlæg 2
		I think I would of put down a value bet on the flop instead of checking (around the same amount he bet). It's a forgone conclusion that he'll follow bet whether he hit or not if you check there.

ColinB Veteran Posts: 1336		RE: Tricky TT spot. Aug 18, 2008 12:03 PM. Indlæg 3
		ok but wont he know I'm weak if I bet out? After all, If I had something why not wait till the preflop raiser bets out? If I was the preflop raiser and faced a bet from the bb Id reraise. 9 out of 10 times I do that the BB folds.

Noah Sinking Senior member Posts: 1605		RE: Tricky TT spot. Aug 18, 2008 12:21 PM. Indlæg 4
		if he has pocket pairs less than J or 2 over cards, he will probably fold to your flop bet. If he flat calls he may have an underpair but more likely he's trapping with an over-pair. So I'd proceed with caution from there. If he re-raises, then fold. But on a flop like that 10 10 is pretty good. It depends as well on how you read the guy. Has he been pre-flop raising with hands like KQ or A10 or middle pairs?

lykanthropos Enthusiast Posts: 5115		RE: Tricky TT spot. Aug 18, 2008 01:54 PM. Indlæg 5
		When someone bet this strong preflop utg, they will follow up with a flop-bet and u wont know where u are, unless u flop a set. This is what i do if i wanna know how strong my pp is. I minimum re-raise his bet preflop. If he flatcalls me ill put him on a hand like AK AQ etc and i can play my hand postflop. If he reraise my reraise i would fold.

sufur Enthusiast Posts: 2834		RE: Tricky TT spot. Aug 18, 2008 02:19 PM. Indlæg 6
		I think this is a fine place to set mine. You aren't really deep enough for a standard reraise but I don't think it would be horrible. I'm not a fan of the minraise, imo 100% of the original raising range is calling so you don't really have any idea where you're at. Some people will 4bet JJ+, some will just call JJ or QQ because they're afraid of being beat. Some will just call with KK or AA to trap. My point is the villain flat-calling doesn't say much. If you have a really good read on your opponent than you can maybe get away with a minraise but I doubt after an hour you have much of a read. A tight player during the first few levels doesn't really tell you much about that same player when the blinds are getting up. Villains stack is quite important as well. Without additional reads at this blind level the biggest concern is whether or not a set mine is profitable. They need about 1200 for it to be break-even. That's assuming they'll stack off of course. I don't think leading out is a bad idea at all. If you lead out a strong bet of 350-400 I think you'll get all the info you need. I know if I have a big hand here, an 8 or JJ I'm betting out at least 75% of the time. If the villain has an overpair they're reraising and you can start slow-playing there if you're so inclined. Imo, AQ or AK is going to fold about 75% of the time, at least.

lykanthropos Enthusiast Posts: 5115		RE: Tricky TT spot. Aug 18, 2008 03:18 PM. Indlæg 7
		Just so noone got me wrong.. I said minimum RE-raise. Not raise. UTG has already bet 350. The reason is mentioned above. I belive QQ KK AA will go all in if he re-raise, not flatcall, SPECIALLY since this is a 5er.

marsvolta77 Senior member Posts: 735		RE: Tricky TT spot. Aug 19, 2008 06:14 AM. Indlæg 8
		villain didn't bet 350, he bet 250. To call for set value we need to be able to get abot 12x our call value of 150 (accounts for times villain does not stack off) ...So villains stack needs to be at least 1800. ...but thats only if youre calling for set value. I dont like min re-raise either... just as bad as min-raise for reasons sufur pointed out. Utg range for average TAG type (only read youve given) would be ATs+, AJ+, 66+, maybe a few other suited connector type hands... hard to say without better read. TT is fairly good vs this type of range but I think pot control is the order of the day here. Reraising is only going to fold out hands you're beating, and will put you to tough decision later oop. Flat call pf is good here imo. cbet is obviously standard from villain. I dont like leading flop.... I prefer check/raise here I think to about 900, and fold to a reraise. Also, dont mind a check/call, and then check/fold to turn barrell (more cash game strategy than tournament). Tough spot... folding probably isnt too bad of a play. Leading flop wont get many folds imo from a huge part of villains range... and will force you to fold once he reraises your donk bet lead with a huge part of his range (that youre probably ahead of). check raise for the win imo.

sufur Enthusiast Posts: 2834		RE: Tricky TT spot. Aug 19, 2008 06:52 AM. Indlæg 9
		oops, that was supposed to be min 3bet. so, are you check raising for value, to know where you're at or a combination of the 2? If you're going on the limited read of "not loose" would you modify the range based on a stats check, ie. winning player assume your average TAG range, losing assume too tight? I guess I'm asking if they're "safe" assumptions iyo. Would you still think check raise is the better line against a player assumed to be too tight? Are these questions making sense? :P

Puggy82 Enthusiast Posts: 1130		RE: Tricky TT spot. Aug 19, 2008 07:26 AM. Indlæg 10
		Firstly the preflop raiser really needs to have more chips than 1800 imo to justify the setmine. Mars suggested 12x to compensate for the times he doesn't stack off, but given the range you gave him, this number has to be considerably higher. I would suggest closer to 20x in order to profitably set mine. He could have overs and you fold when you don't hit your set, and he bets. He could have KK and the board come A T x. So if you flat call you need to be able to win the hand when you don't flop a set. Mars suggests a check raise to 900 and folding to a shove. I think i really dislike this. Thats putting in 900 on the flop + 150 preflop which = 1050 of our 2550 stack, before folding on a non threatening board to someone who could be an idiot (raising 5x in a $5 online mtt) and holding 99 or even AK. Check/call in this spot having flatted would be ok, does he fire again on the turn with overs? You gain more info this way without putting in that extra 600 or so. I don't call preflop in order to fold on that board though to one bet. It wouldn't be bad to fold the TT, mars gives the utg player a range and that might be correct at this level, but normally when i see a 5x utg raise to 250 i put them on a much tighter range, weighted in particular to JJ/QQ/AQ/AK. Hands that the raiser feels don't flop too well. I genuinely think i fold preflop normally, but in a $5 I'm not too sure.